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RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:51:18 GMT

oops forgot to add your dogs are cute!!! player is sooo pretty I dont think you will have any problem finnishing him and lil macy! I could just squish her little cheeks! and shadow is very cute too good luck with all your future shows!

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:45:37 GMT

yes her sires nose is a little too pointy for my liking. its not as bad as the picture makes it look. luckily belle didnt get that from him. their is nothing really wrong with her coloring its just most judges prefer the bi blacks to not have a blaze. they say her markings make her look to border collie- ish and the way the blaze goes to the side on the top of her head makes it look like she has a bump on her head her eyes are a bit too round for my liking but i have seen worse, and they actualy look nice when she is out in the sun, but inside they look more rounded. I dont know if that makes sence to you but.... another problem I am having with her coat is the rusty highlights from being out in the sun. I am not sure what to do about them except for black chalk. how do people that show prevent the black coats from bleaching?? also at this time before we can even think about showing I have to get her over her the problem of her not wanting to be touched by strangers! she is not really fearfull she just will back away and bark. she wants to make her mind up first if she likes the person! if she feels they are ok then she will let them touch her, but i know a judge doesnt have the time to wait and see if she is going to like him

RE: what would you do?

AshleyC — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:08:07 GMT

Unless, I am absolutely stupid.... which I wouldn't doubt LOL ... I've never heard of a color being an option for not showing. Unless, she is the weirdest colored sheltie in the world and she doesn't look like it from the pictures I've seen. To me she looks to be a very lovely colored up bi-black.

When using ear weights in a show make sure you use a lead based pack, or use the cherry knoll stuff if you don't like to use lead. Because you have to put it on lightly, you don't want it to be obvious that her ears are weighed. Just like makeup all the stuff you use to highlight a dogs good points you want it all look very natural.

Unless her eyes are obviously to round.... I don't see why she couldn't make an AKC show dog. Not from the shots you have on your post. Most times after having the first litter they grow a nicer fuller coat. After they go naked for a couple of months...

If you don't like all the grooming involved in AKC you can do UKC, most shelties, unless they are really bad can finish in the UKC shows, but I have heard lately there is getting to be stiffer competion in UKC.

From the pictures of the her sire and grand-sire, I have to admit I do like grand-sire best. Her sire doesn't have a bad back and shoulders, but his head... maybe it is just the way the picture was taken but he looks very pointy in the snout which suggest an overbite.

You can PM me anytime!

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:02:32 GMT

so far I have had her thyroid tested its normal! she is vwd cleared by parents. I had her hips x-rayed about 6 months ago and the vet said they look nice and tight and no deformities to the ball. I have not had her eyes cerf'd yet my vet doesnt do that testing, but he did say they look good so she should have no problems passing that test. she is looking better as she matures (she is 19 mounths right now) but the breeders I have talked to said our main problem is her color! it creates illusions and makes her 1 leg look crooked and her planes not parallel. as for her ears I have been using pine tar which is a softener and a weight. the only problem is that stuff STINKS!!! Belle is starting to hate her ears touched. for now we are going to concentrate on obedience and maybe agility hopefully later on we can do some UKC shows. oh her pedigree is mostly kismet linebred with some cinder glo. her grandpa is ch. kismets ghengis kahn I love him but unfortunatly he is sterile I would post her pedigree but adobe isnt cooperating with me I will have to have my husband try and fix it! september 13th will be 6 months from her last heat cycle dont know if she will actually go in season at that time but I will be breeding her to a gorgeous sable male with natural ears!!!!

I dont have pics of belles mom but I do have one of her dad and grandpa

her dad blaze

and grandpa conner (ch. gengis kahn)

RE: what would you do?

AshleyC — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:14:15 GMT

You do know that you can do preliminary testing on dogs at the age ten months to a year? You can't get them certified until two years of age, but doing preliminaries can tell you if your dog is clear or not... Most breeders do the preliminaries when they want to breed before two years of age.

Don't give up on your dog yet... .confirmation wise. Shelties sometimes take up to two years and sometimes longer before they are considered mature. I would not worry about her head angultaion just yet. Some don't develop nice stops until they are fully mature. What are her pedigree lines? Different lines develop differently.

I'd keep that ear glued down like forever. And pray, pray, pray!

Have you tried to put ear weight into her ears? Sometimes show people get by with doing that to take them into the ring. Cherry Knoll has some good ear weight for sale. OK, so it's nasty, but I bet if you asked every sheltie handler in the world they will tell you they've done it at least once. A stand up ear is not a disqualification! It is just major points against you. But, you can help improve it by using weights.

And, don't worry about all the powder and fix ups show people use. When you put on your make-up to go out in the morning???? It is the same thing... it makes the dog look better.

And, flat dying white spots.... where white spots aren't suppose to be? That is illegal! If they were found out they would be disqualified!

I've put white chalk on my dogs white spots.... just to make them stand out better, plus it makes the hair look puffier!

Good luck girl!

RE: what would you do?

RMBXRS — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:15:36 GMT

First of all, you can ALWAYS improve on a female's faults. You just have to do your homework and do a lot of research first to find the right male. Secondly, IMO no dog, male or female, should be bred until FULL proper health testing is complete after the age of two years. Heart and eye testing being done yearly. Third, after this testing is done and she is fully mature then and only then talk to her breeder about results of both.

Being a breeder myself, if this was the only female in the litter and was the only chance to keep that line going.... and I trusted your word as the buyer on a breeding agreement. Then you went behind my back and spayed the female dog.I personally would take you to court. So talk to your breeder first. Be an adult, you were an adult entering into this purchase agreement. Do full testing and evaluation, talk to the breeder and perhaps you could come to the same conclusion...to breed her or not.

BUT if you gave your word, verbal or not, how good is it?

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:28:47 GMT

Collie/GSD/Sheltie/Corgi/Russell_luvr (7/16/2008)

Wow, that breeder doesn't sound too good. No dog should be bred until it is at least two years old.
I think that you should try to back out of the contract. What good breeder would require someone to breed the puppy they bought anyway?
You could probably still show her though.

P.S.
Okay, I just read your last post. Good luck...

I have cut the strings with the breeder other than the breeding that is going to take place. once that is done I have no legal or moral obligations to her. the reason I was required to breed her is I purchased her as show quality, and she is the last granddaughter she has of her champion male that went sterile. I wish I could show belle I have been complemented a lot on her looks by other breeders, but during her last heat cycle her one ear went up and no amount of glueing would get it to tip down again and that is a big fault in the show ring. so I will have to settle with obedience and agility if I can get her to go through the chute! I would love to try herding with her, but between cost of lessons, time, and the fact their isnt a nearby place that teaches herding it probably wont happen.

RE: what would you do?

Collie/GSD/Sheltie/Corgi/Russell_luvr — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:53:29 GMT

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:17:40 GMT

Actualy I have changed my mind. after talking to several different sheltie breeders, and having her evaluated by a breeder other than her origanal breeder, they feel she has matured into a nice looking female. with the help of her breeder we have picked out a male that compliments her nicley, and should hopefully improve on her faults. Belle will never like the show ring, but we are working on obedience and agility (she loves the tunnel!!) I will probably only breed her once maybe twice depending on what she produces. I will also be keeping a puppy, and the owner of the stud will possible keep a puppy if their is a good show quality pup. All pups that are not show quality will be on a spay/nueture contract with money back incentive for having the pup fixed. So now all I have to do is finish her vet check! she is vwd clear, eyes clear, thyroid tested normal, and hips look good (cant be ofa'd until 2),and will be tested for bruccellosis befor she is bred, which should be some time late fall or early winter. I have done a lot of research and have put in a lot of time and effort to see that everything goes perfectly. Belle's vet is a former breeder and used to show shelties and I think he is more excited than I am about the upcoming litter

RE: what would you do?

loverof dogs — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:35:19 GMT

well i would be careful on the verbal contracts cause i have seen some case on people case and some have won over the verbal contract.

well on breeding her i would have her spayed it will calm her down and change her temperment some.i wont breed cause alot people wouldnt want a dog that has trust issues like that.i have who has a border collie and she told me she had to work really hard to get her dog calmed down enough to be around kids especially.i know kids are harder to tell them not to do things with the dog

RE: what would you do?

CCC — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 09:25:20 GMT

You've made a wise decision in not breeding her, and if I were you I'd get her spayed. Since her faults will prevent her from succeeding in the show ring with you, it's not necessary to keep her intact. She'll make a better pet once spayed.

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 03:54:02 GMT

well I made my decision I am not going to breeed her she just has too many faults and I dont want to bring anymore puppies in this world if they are not going to better the breed I am going to keep her and just wait for a while until I can find a great breeder to work with one that cares more for their dogs and the quaility they breed

RE: what would you do?

PudelGrl — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 16:04:49 GMT

rainsmom (11/3/2007)

one question if I break an oral contract with her wont she spread the word around that I am untrust worthy to other breeders? for now I am not going to get her spayed but that doesnt mean I am going to breed her I have kept intact females before (both pilot dogs) and they didnt get pregnant I am going to wait before I purchase another dog I want to do more research I jumped into getting a show dog too soon next time I am going to do better at checking out breeders instead of choosing one with the best price

another quick question do you think other breeders would look down on me if I showed belle anyways just for the experience of me handling a dog or would it be better to just wait until I have a dog worth showing

oh and how do join an all breed club thier is one that is about 1/2 an hour drive from me I wrote them and never received a response ( they have no phone # listed or e-mail address) thier is a sheltie specialty club in columbus but that is a 2 hour drive and right now I have a very clingy 3 year old that wont let me out of her sight

If you explain the situation, good people won't look bad on you. By refusing to breed a lower quality female at such a young are you ARE IN THE RIGHT. Some people may bad-mouth you (I've had my share, mainly one lady in the area whose known for her lines chronic health problems), but the GOOD people will see that you are responsible.

As for showing a non-quality dog, its fine. Just let people know you understand her faults and want to gain experience. They will be especially understanding if your son is showing her. As for the breed club not responding, they tend to do that, so try to meet them in person. I had trouble joining the poodle club of canada at first, but at Bo's second show I met two people who were willing to be my sponsers.

As for the sheltie specialty, I would do it, if your three year old is clingy, let your son show her. People love seeing young people in the ring and you could so to speak "use this to your advantage" as there are a lot of people out there who want to get juniors started out on the right foot.

Hang in there rainsmom, you will get there and eventually get a great showdog and network of mentors, you just need a little patience. Things will come if you stick up for the responsible methods.

RE: what would you do?

cavalier king charles spaniel — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:45:05 GMT

You should not breed her,but you should not spay her because of the contract.I do not think that other breeders would look down on you if you showed her.

RE: what would you do?

rainsmom — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:44:02 GMT

RE: what would you do?

PudelGrl — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:33:39 GMT

I have to agree, I would spay her and just have your son have her as a juniors dog. Since it was an oral contract, the breeder can't do anything to you. In addition, by breeding a female dog like that (and at that age) you are not earning any respect in the sheltie community be the responsible people I assume you eventually want to associate with and own dogs from. One thing I have learned in the show world is to keep your name clean, word does travel fast through networks and you want to have only good things being said about you that will eventually help your potential to get a very good dog in the future.

And for the record, the conformation people arn't THAT BAD! Go out and meet some and see, sometimes on shows we may seem rude, but its just a rushed state. I went into a breed this is a big handler breed and is known for its politics (dyed coats, blackened noises, switches, the works) and guess what? I finished my dog as is owner handling, no fake hair, no dying, no chalking, no blakening etc.... The key is, get a good dog, meet people who will teach you to show it to the best of your ability and then get out there and gain experience. Eventually you will find that the show world is indeed full of a lot of good people to balance out the ones you always hear the stories about.

RE: what would you do?

Goldens66 — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:15:39 GMT

I would get her spayed!!!! You said the lady breeds the dogs at 14-18 months.Dogs should never be bred before 18 months and it's best to wait until the dog is 2 years old.Spaying her will reduce the chance of her getting many types of cancer. There are already to many dogs in this world.Don't add to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what would you do?

rainsmom — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 08:49:35 GMT

as most of you know I bought Belle for showing/breeding I was wondering what would you do in my situation I bought Belle under a verbel contract that I would breed her at least once to the stud of her choice she gets pick of the litter since it is a verbel conract it probably wouldnt be to hard to get out of breeding her oh and she usually breeds her dogs at 14-18 months of age

ok here is why I am debating on whether or not to breed her first I am not going to be showing her aside from the border collie like markings that would keep her from winning I just dont agree with a lot of the stuff that goes on at shows the dying of thier fur the rudness of some people just basically I believe they have gotten away with the whole purpose of showing so I dont want to be considered a backyard breeder second I think her temperment is iffy she is fine around us and she is fine around most adults if they let her approach them but kids is another thing she doesnt care for kids other than mine so I dont want to pass on bad temperment problems to the puppies also I do know her faults I have been studying the breed standard and comparing her with other dogs that meet the standard I know most of her faults lie in her head her eyes are too round she has a sliding stop and her ear set is too wide and she is a little fine boned but her movement is good she has a nice level back her coat color is awsome it is very black with no hint of rust she has a nice muzzle nice neck length

of course she is only 9 months old so it will be a while before I have to decide what I am going to do I still have to get her hips checked and her thyroid I just want to plan ahead and make sure I am completly ready before I breed her I have desided not to go ahead and buy a stud dog I will either stud her out or get her spayed