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RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

Ingot — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:58:49 GMT

I won't pretend to have understood much of that at all but I think maybe I got the outline? haha. Anyway- I agree, from what I barely understand, likely the paper pups are mixes.

What an interesting aberation though! Just when I thought I'd seen it all! See new topic on "Unusual Colors etc", I'd love to learn more.

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

PudelGrl — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:54:28 GMT

2BrownDogs (7/13/2008)

They are incredible, no? They are very very rare though...like one in a million +, so chances are the Labbies in your paper are most likely mixes.

The tan point marking in Labs is fairly more common, as apparently Gordon setters were bred to Labs in the arly history of the breed. The gene is recessive and can be passed down many generations before a tan point pup is produces.

The mosaic and brindling have something to do with gene abnormalities which is way to technical for me to understand. LOL here's the explanation:

"Brindling describes alternating expression of black and red color in the hair throughout the coat. There are several possible causes for this fault that occasionally appears in Labs. One cause may be attributed to the "e^br" allele that controls brindling in many other breeds of dogs. For expression of this trait, both sire and dam would have to carry the mutant "e^br" allele, which is recessive to the "E" allele, but more dominant than the mutant "e" allele for yellow.

Alternatively, brindling in Labs may be the result of what geneticists call a mosaic. A mosaic indicates differences in the somatic tissue of heterozygotes that come about during mitotic division of somatic cells (recall from above that somatic cells are those that make-up the body). There are two possible ways by which an individual may become a mosaic. The first is called chromosome nondisjunction by which during division into daughter cells, one of the chromosomes fails to separate from its duplicated chromosome. As a result, one daughter cell receives an extra chromosome and the other receives an unpartnered-chromosome.

The second way that a mosaic may be produced is called chromosome loss by which the chromosome containing the dominant allele gets left behind when the daughter cell's nucleus reconstitutes.

In either situation described above, the daughter cells of these altered somatic cells will contain the same alterations. As a result, one will observe a mosaic or brindled pattern of normal color mixed with color produced by the altered somatic cells. This condition has been reported in a Lab showing mosaic black and yellow coat color. When this Lab was bred to other Labs of normal coat colors of black, chocolate, or yellow, it was determined that the variation in color was not due to a mutated E locus allele (like the "e^br" allele) because none of the offspring demonstrated this phenotype. Rather, this coat characteristic was attributed to a chromosomal alteration as described above.

Therefore, the brindling phenotype rarely observed in Labs might be the result of a stable allele mutation (such as the "e^br" allele), or a random somatic chromosome mutation involving the E or B loci. "

Got all that? Anyway, I would not buy a brindled Lab...especially out of the local paper!

Cool 2brown, I actually got that..... (but are we surprised?)

I'll draw some diagrams of some of this stuff when I get the chance and scan them. A lot of the concepts are much easier when you see a picture.

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

2BrownDogs — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:57:25 GMT

They are incredible, no? They are very very rare though...like one in a million +, so chances are the Labbies in your paper are most likely mixes.

The mosaic and brindling have something to do with gene abnormalities which is way to technical for me to understand. LOL here's the explanation:

The second way that a mosaic may be produced is called chromosome loss by which the chromosome containing the dominant allele gets left behind when the daughter cell's nucleus reconstitutes.

Got all that? Anyway, I would not buy a brindled Lab...especially out of the local paper!

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

Ingot — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:15:42 GMT

2BrownDogs- I am absolutely dumbfounded. The pictures you posted are completely new concepts to me. Wow- thanks for the learning opportunity!

I jumped to a conclusion based on experience- I knew someone who bred their black female to a chocolate male for a high fee. They promptly went on vacation and had a petsitter. The next morning found the lovely lady in a relationship with the neighbors Dobe. The petsitter reported it. When the litter of 14 arrived, half the pups were black or chocolate and the rest were black &tan or chocolate/tan. He registered the litter- reporting only the 7 solid colored puppies.

Spot is very interesting. The sleeping yellow puppy with the black band and one black leg is very unique. There seems to be no real pattern to the splashes and they remain very Labrador looking. The brindle and pointed colors make those look like mixes. Not implying they are, more emphasis on how much of a role color plays in breed identification. Thanks for the education!

I followed your photos to the Blue Knight webpage- wow! They answered many questions! It's interesting to know how unpredictable the mismarks are and how it really could not be counted on for marketing mosaics or splashes. That was one of my main concerns. The site linked to Spot has a lot of good information on the silver- appalling pedigree. It's been a long time since I bumped into something inspiring more thought and research! Thanks again!

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

Tycho — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:39:32 GMT

I've only ever seen the chocolate, black, and yellow. They do look interesting and unique though!

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

outcast13 — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:45:27 GMT

Seriously? Wow I have NEVER seen anything like that before!!! I thought they only came in Yellow, Black, Chocolate, and Silver...

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

2BrownDogs — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:30:21 GMT

They're amazing, aren't they? Though I really shouldn't be fawning over a fault! This guy is my favorite. He's European, aptly named Spot.

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

muttlover17 — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:28:45 GMT

Oh Wow, i never knew they could turn out like that.

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

Tycho — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:23:55 GMT

Wow, I've never seen Labs marked like that before!

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

2BrownDogs — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:20:03 GMT

Well, it is certainly possible to have purebred, brindle Lab puppies, though it is a serious fault in the breed. Many breeds have mismarks, and as long as the parents are AKC registered, then the puppies can be too. They are just unable to be show, and definitely should not ever be bred. I hope this breeder is not charging more for the brindle, as this pup should be worth considerably less than the others.

Other purebred, AKC Labs:

A very cute brindle pup:

Mosaic coloring:

Chocolate point

All of the above labs are purebred with some uncommon mismarks. It is perfectly acceptable to register these dogs with the AKC.

RE: Labrador Retriever Puppies

muttlover17 — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:16:18 GMT

I bet 5 dollars someone will fall for it.I know my parents would,

Labrador Retriever Puppies

Ingot — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:10:17 GMT

Todays paper:

For Sale

AKC registered Lab puppies

chocolate and chocolate BRINDLE.

How much do you want to bet someone will actually fall for this?

As I learned years ago- AKC registration is only as reliable as the people who fill out and send in the paperwork.